“Moot point,” not “mute point”
I haven’t heard this myself, but my friend Celeste has and it’s so hilarious it deserves a blog entry.
Apparently Celeste has heard people say, “It’s a mute point.”
That’s “mute” pronounced “mee-yoot” as in remaining silent.
The correct term is “moot point” and the correct first word, its spelling, and pronunciation is “moot.” Like adding T to the end of what a cow would say.
And what is meant by “moot point”? A moot point is one that need not be decided, due to a change of circumstances. Very interesting, because the word “moot” by itself means “debatable, or subject to discussion,” the opposite of its use in the legal context. The shift in usage is slowly happening, starting here in the United States.
But what’s this about a “mute point”? As Celeste reports to me, some people say this thinking it means, “Let’s put the mute button on and cease any discussion on this.”
Wouldn’t it be funny if the term evolves this way to become correct? After all, with the ubiquity of remote controls and mute buttons, a “mute point” may make more sense than a “moot point” to someone who’s not a lawyer.
For today, however, it’s wrong. Say “moot point” and try not to stick a “y” sound in there.
…. Help! — Is it, “toe the line” or “tow the line”? (And, from where does this little oft used metaphor come?)
Rod Smith
Rod E. Smith, MSMFT
2006 Sep 27 at 07:20
It’s tow.
ellen
2009 Jun 26 at 09:42
It’s “toe the line.” The way I understand it, there’s a line that you don’t want to cross so you can only get as far as your toe touching the line, but not going beyond it.
wellaontheweb
2006 Oct 2 at 01:06
Thanks!
This really helped, as I use it in speech often but never required spelling it, until a recent email in which I used it (but wasn’t sure of the spelling).
But now that the email has been sent, I suppose that’s a moot point! ;)
Ron
Ron
2006 Oct 26 at 17:48
Sorry for the double-post, but I wanted to make a comment on the above comments (“toe the line” or “tow the line”?) as well.
The phrase “toe the line” is equivalent to “toe the mark,” both of which mean to conform to a rule or a standard. The Oxford Dictionary of Word Histories (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 2002; ed. by Glynnis Chantrell) says, “The idiom toe the line from an athletics analogy originated in the early 19th century”
It is in reference to a foot race, in which the competitors must keep their toe behind a certain line, until the ‘gun’. (Of course the ‘GUN’ has since been replaced, along with many of out liberties!)
Ron
2006 Oct 26 at 18:00
For more of these, see the eggcorn database
http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/
madbandril
2007 Feb 7 at 13:00
It’s funny, I’ve actually used ‘Mute point’ as a sort of lame pun, because I think it does make more sense; I was deluding myself that I had coined it :)
I think I will continue to use it (although carefully, now that I know I might be mistaken for an illiterate).
Al
2007 Apr 3 at 13:51
If an issue is quiet or mute it doesn’t have to become moot in point of fact.
Bill
2007 Apr 13 at 10:05
My experience with “toe the line” is to have the courage and loyalty to line up with your fellow soldiers and if you don’t you are a coward.
SGT Timothy Verkist US Army (Ret)
2007 Oct 23 at 13:50
With all due respect Sgt, you are an idiot.
Sgt Stadenko
2007 Nov 29 at 02:14
Wow! I have heard “mute point” several times and seen it written a few times too. I think we need to be careful in encouraging its use, even as a pun. The author of an essay loses all credibility when he or she writes “mute” point.
Bill
2008 Jan 7 at 15:28
From my understanding, ‘toe the line’ came from the game of Darts, where you have to butt your toe up against the line! Do you have darts in the US? I only know it as a British pub game, and if not, I suppose this would also be a moot point…? lol
Emma
2008 Jan 15 at 09:25
Sgt Stadenko – Isn’t that like the pot calling the kettle black?…with all due respect, of course! You have proven to be rather misguided on appropriate uses of the phrase, “…due respect”, thereby eliminating your credibility to comment on acceptable uses of language in general.
By the way, I happen to know Sgt Verkist is as far from an idiot as one can get. Your status, on the other hand, is under debate.
Mensa B
2008 Jan 15 at 12:00
Where is Mute Point?
A writer in our local paper actually used mute point in an article. Our local paper has it roots dating back to 1853 and although it is not widely circulated, many in our county subscribe for the wonderful local news and information. Often we get interesting letters to the editor and quirky articles. A few months back there was a photo of a cat on the front page, it had done nothing extraordinary, it was just a cat. Quaint.
Feb. 21, 2008 – Defunct helicopter school grounds local students
By Denise Marie Siino
“For Seed, it’s a mute point. ‘Why waste a bunch of money paying a lawyer to maybe get a few bucks out of a class action suit? It’s time to move on.’ “
Contact Denise Siino at (530) 344-5062 or e-mail her at dsiino@mtdemocrat.net.
http://www.mtdemocrat.com/story.php?id=101.3
Darrin McNeice
2008 Feb 21 at 09:49
I got into a huge argument with a friend about this once, sparked by the song “Jessie’s Girl” by Rick Springfield. In it, he signs, “I wanna tell her that I love her / but the point is probably moot” (leave it to Rick Springfield to use legal jargon in a love song). My friend insisted that he was saying “mute,” and I actually had to print out the lyrics for her to believe me (ironically, the first set of lyrics I found had it spelled “mute,” too). She put up such a fight over something she didn’t even understand! As a studying lawyer, and a grammar advocate, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. This, and “nip it in the butt” instead of “nip it in the bud.”
GodivaEyes
2008 Mar 6 at 11:55
I have seen “mute point” used too many times to count, and by people who normally write well enough that you’d think they’d know better.
Cindy
2008 Mar 19 at 17:01
What I wonder is whether it makes a difference. While I would normally side with the language lovers, why must we stick with this bizarre phrase? Obviously the words ‘moot’ and ‘mute’ have very different meanings. As long as person’s intended meaning matches the term they use, what is wrong with either?
Stuart Coulter
2008 May 29 at 16:39
[...] Posted by lrrp How about my favorite born-triteism, mute-point? “Moot point,” not “mute point” “Language Rules!” __________________ The art of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing [...]
10 Grammar Mistakes That Make You Look Stupid - Page 11 - PoliticalGroove Forums
2008 Jun 17 at 11:39
My favorite here is from a “Friends” episode.
Joey says, the point is “moo”.
Chandler corrects him: “you mean it’s moot”.
Joey contradicts: No, the point is “Moo”. It’s like a cow’s opinion, it doesn’t matter.
Mark Joppru
2008 Jul 10 at 12:05
You are correct to an extent…please note that of the many definitions the context most use this word as an adjective it takes on new meaning…it means deprived of practical significance.
Karen
2008 Jul 17 at 10:56
“toe the line” is from English naval jargon from were sailors were required to line up for inspection along a line – the edge of a plank in the deck
bob
2008 Aug 12 at 15:20
I believe we have two meanings here. Moot point means debatable but of no value. Even law students that debate a point know this as their outcome of the debate as no actual value as it does not apply to law. On the other hand Mute point means a point that is silent. It is silent because No one is interested to hear the point being put forth. So it is silent. Now mute point may be a pretty much new phrase as moot point is a well established but misunderstood old english phrase. Moot point is a point up for debate. Mute point is a point to remain silent. Different understanding of different phases that sound nearly the same. And most people in the USA do not understand moot point. And most people in the USA use mute point to refer to a point to be left silent.
Larry
2008 Sep 20 at 02:56
Larry you are ignorant to the term. There is no term mute point. Moot point is the only proper term. Mute point is at best a vulgar term. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to what a vulgar term is.
David
2008 Sep 24 at 15:14
The discussion is all very amusing. I recently had a discussion with an associate where we were interested in knowing how “moot” was originally derived. Was there a lawyer with the name Moot, or a law professor with that name who derived the process of debate as in “moot court”? Any insight out there?
Paul
2008 Oct 8 at 11:13
Clive Cussler in “Sacred Stone” uses the expression “mute point”. Momentum is building for mute to become the new moot …
Bernardo
2008 Oct 8 at 23:36
The word is spelled “moot” but pronounced just like the (totally unrelated) word “mute”. Originated in the English court system hundreds of years ago, with meaning changing from a point of discussion to an irrelevant argument.
“Moot” certainly sounds better to the ear, but “mute” is technically the correct way to say it. There seem to be plenty of cases where it is being spelled incorrectly, but reference any dictionary and you should be able to verify the pronunciation.
GuyIncognito
2008 Oct 15 at 09:30
No, this pronunciation is completely wrong.
nosugrefneb
2008 Oct 15 at 15:53
Speaking of pronunciation, I have a general question for everyone. Why are t’s disappearing from the middle of words in common (i.e. Hollywood) speech? You know – entertainment pronounced “ennertainment”, and dentist is “dennis”. And then there is the addition of random consonants (e.g. “ekspecially” for “especially”). I don’t get it. Am I just being an overly sensitive middle-aged grump?
Henry
2008 Oct 27 at 17:56
Henry, how about the increasing loss of G’s in participles and gerunds and such? Scrimpin’ and savin’ and nothin’. Obama is a terrible offender in this regard, and I think if he’s elected, the dropped G will become permanent, like Eisenhower’s “nucular” was adopted by a whole generation that includes George Bush.
Chet
2008 Oct 30 at 06:28
Eghhh… I HATE it when people say “nucular”. It’s possibly my second-biggest pet peeve. In high school, I had a CONTEMPORARY WORLD ISSUES teacher–yes, a guy who claimed he was an expert about modern issues–that said nucular every single day of the semester.
Also, I would like to know where GuyIncognito got his info; how can a double ‘o’ be possibly construed to sound like “mute”? And I read once that “moot” once meant something along the lines of “meet,” though I’m not sure how that works. Oh, well.
Danielle
2008 Nov 8 at 02:28
GuyIncognito: Coming from Canada (where we do tend to articulate our words more precisely) there is a huge difference between the pronunciation of “moot” & “mute”. I don’t know what it’s like in the US, but up here there would be no mistaking the two in conversation. That being said there are lots of grammatically-challenged people up here using “mute” when they are in fact talking about a point which no longer requires discussion.
Personally I have one big grammatical pet-peeve: ANYWAYS. There is no “s” on the end of “anyway”! And the thing that gets me about it is the usage of “anyways” is the same as “anyway” – just incorrectly spelt and pronounced!
MaryB
2008 Nov 26 at 12:25
Actually, There is such a thing as a mute point. No really, there is!
I program and run a Fanuc robot in my job, and very often, it’s beneficial to create a position where the robot is in the middle of its work area, not beside or committed to a particular peice of machinery. This point is used as a “Halfway point” that you always go back to when traversing across the bay. It’s called a mute point.
Mark
2008 Dec 11 at 01:52
Saying ‘Mute point’ is bad; however saying ‘For all intensive purposes’ is much worse … ;-O
Akhil
2009 Jan 31 at 16:49
“Mute point” was created by a generation of people that watch TV instead of reading. It stems from people who don’t read hearing “moot point” incorrectly from a TV show or movie, it happens to make a small amount of sense if you think about it so it stuck.
Bill Bill
2009 Feb 18 at 22:52
This item was debated tonight on ABC’s Private Practice. Great post.
Jess
2009 Mar 12 at 21:36
I would like to add something to this. People with Dsylexia will spell how they pronounce….they use images rather the phonetics to spell. So this person may have heard the word as Mute not Moot and imaged it. They may read or hear it pronounced differently but they will continue to embrace that image. Spell check has been a good send because the image is corrected with another image.
Sam
2009 Mar 19 at 09:45
MOOT POINT is the correct terminology. Howvever the defined word never rings true to the statements intent. MUTE POINT is a slanged spin on the same term. Yes, the term is used widely and by a number of professionals. And yes it is (defintion wise) correct.
Had this debate today with a Grammartyttrriaccally correct friend. LOL. He’s almost anal about words and their correct usage even to the point of correcting slang in phrase usage that is constantly evolving into new uses because it’s… slang. Yeah.
Darth Furious
2009 Apr 3 at 19:44
[...] http://languagerules.wordpress.com/2006/09/25/moot-point-not-mute-point/ The Urban [...]
Moot Point/Mute Point | Lexicide
2009 Apr 6 at 13:52
I frequently argue about this with friends of mine.
My stance on this one is that I’ll say moot point as I always have, although I thought it meant simply useless, as I thought moot was a synonym for 0 as a concept.
Apparently not.
But on the topic throughout these comments –
Language gets bastardized. it always will. itch and scratch are now interchangable. As will these two things eventually. Casually pointing this out is one thing. Especially if you do it privately. But slapping someone with this and getting all smarmy about it makes you a jackass.
I mean, really… how similar is the american english language to the british english?
And how many other examples of this are there?
Things will always evolve like this. Great to know the etymology and help stop people from looking like morons, if they’re clearly not morons.
punkonjunk
2009 Jun 17 at 17:11
Punkonjunk, you’re right on. Language continually evolves. I read a book about linguistics years ago. The author/title escapes me, but I recall his discussion about “linguistic chauvinism”. This phrase always comes to mind whenever some “smarmy jackass” corrects those more relaxed about their useage.
Of course, we’re all guilty of linguistic chauvinism to some extent, just as we are with other types of chauvinism. The enlightened intellect will acknowledge it in themselves and others, and move on without making it a big deal.
I will admit though, that it bugs the HELL out of me when people use “mute point”! LOL
Bennett
2009 Jun 18 at 20:26